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Part Three: Moral Action and Human Nature

Xun Zi – Human Nature is Evil

Xun Zi said there is something wrong with Mencius’s view that Human Nature is good. He thought that view was too idealistic and didn’t believe that was really the case. Human Nature, he said, is not really good.

His view was more Machiavellian; he believed that Human Nature is bad, so you just have to control it. (And from this you get a hint of how the Legalist philosophy grew out of this line of argument) 

Xun Zi - he believed that Human Nature is bad, so you just have to control it.

Xun Zi - he believed that Human Nature is bad, so you just have to control it.

Xun Zi says, if I perform a good moral action, that is just because I am scared of punishment or I’m scared of the loss I might incur such as loss of face. I do it not because I intrinsically want to but because I’m scared of the consequences of not doing it. So in that sense that’s not real morality.

There is No Moral Action – Only Fear of Consequences

Some Confucian philosophers interpret Xun Zi as saying: There is no moral action there is just potential choices and each has its consequences.

For example, imagine I’m a kid and I’m hungry and I fight with my brother over a piece of cake. Our mother sees us and punishes both of us and neither of us get the cake. So through this error or action I learn to suppress my desire to fight so my mum will see us both being good and maybe give us 2 cakes. So in that sense when you are performing a right moral act, doing the right thing, you are just calculating your long term best interests, your long term benefit and you are just making a rational choice. So Ultimately it is about satisfying your own desire, your own self interest.

Confucians say “this is not what we Confucianists have in mind – real moral actions are be those performed intrinsically for the sake of doing it.

Not because I like it

Not because I desire it

Not because it satisfies me

Just because it is Moral

So these guys hate Xun Zi because he starts from the opposite premise that they hold true – that Human Nature is good

Support for Xun Zi

Another group of Confucian philosophers, who are more inclined to support Xun Zi, say:

I’m not sure that is what Confucius was saying so if that is what you are going to use against Xun Zi you have a problem. They say, If you go back to Mencius, he says,

If we perform a moral action that is because it is prompted by the 4 moral sprouts in our heart but it is also because you like it. It satisfies you, it is something that satisfies your heart’s desire so in that case there is still a case of satisfying your own desire. It’s just that in this case you happen to desire to do good. (That’s their interpretation of Mencius)

So is it really intrinsically a moral action and if its not, you can’t use it as an argument against Xun Zi.

This led them to ask “How is moral action possible in Chinese Philosophy?”

Is this something that has to be guided by or driven by desire or is this something that’s performed for the sake of that thing it self?

Or

Is it something we are told to do – is it something that is welded externally to me that’s not part of me? It’s just something that is forced on me.

This is the question that people are still struggling with today.

Post Script

In ancient Chinese Philosophy there were at one time four themes on human nature

  • Human Nature is Good
  • Human Nature is bad
  • Human Nature is both Good and bad
  • Human Nature is neither Good nor Bad, it just about a later development.

I’m not sure why the later two views are not talked about any more in Chinese Philosophy but when Confucianism was adopted as the state doctrine / orthodoxy by the Han Dynasty things tended to get stereotyped and conflicting views were squeezed out.

Mencius was against the view that human nature is an empty vessel – he used the famous example – if you walk by a lake and see a child drowning its not possible that you don’t feel anything. You must feel something and that something is just the sprout of compassion telling you to act. If you listen to it you will go and rescue the child but if you listen to your senses of desire “Oh the water is too cold or I’ll ruin my good clothes for example, you would stop yourself from helping. So Mencius is quite adamant that Human Nature is good.

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Category: Confucian Philosophy  Tags: , , , , , , , ,  
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Confucius on Moral Action and Human Nature

From a philosophical point of view the huge body of work written about Confucian thinking by second and third generation Confucian philosophers is probably far more important for many reasons

From a philosophical point of view the huge body of work written about Confucian thinking by second and third generation Confucian philosophers is probably far more important for many reasons

The History of the Philosophy of Moral Action in Ancient China

 

People often say that the great Eastern Texts; by which they generally mean, the Analects of Confucius, The Tao Te Ching and Buddhist texts, are not really philosophy but something else such as religion or mysticism.

However while the Analects and the Tao Te Ching are the two most translated Ancient Chinese texts they are probably not the most philosophically rigorous works in these genres and to really appreciate the philosophical discussion that has gone on in China over the last 2,500 years it is necessary to read some of the disciples of these great Chinese thinkers as well.

Lack of Quality Translations a Problem for Western Readers

And therein lies the problem. I believe that our lack of appreciation of Ancient Chinese philosophy is due to Western ignorance of most of the works that have been written rather than to any failing in the philosophical works themselves.

And that ignorance is mainly due to the scarcity of translations of the texts until quite recently (the last 200 years). However there is still a long way to go and there are still many more great texts that will be translated in the future but are not available to those of us who cannot read Ancient or modern Chinese today.

But one translation does not open a door to greater understanding. The lack of good translations of the more important works of a plethora of later Confucian philosophers such as Mencius, Xun Zi, and the Taoist Chuang Tzu and others has been a giant hurdle for Western philosophers that has hindered their understanding of the value of these works.

Translating Ancient Chinese to modern Chinese is hard enough but translating it into English or French or German is a 100 times more difficult and most translations get some of the texts or the concepts they are translating wrong.

In this article I want to concentrate on Confucian Thinking but because that is also a huge topic, I will look at just one of the philosophical issues followers of Confucius  have debated over the centuries. In doing so I hope to establish that the ancient Chinese philosophers were as rigorous as any in Western Philosophy.

The area I want to discuss is

How Confucian’s view Moral Action and Human Nature.

Basically:

  • What do Confucians think about Moral Action
  • Is moral action possible in Confucian Philosophy or put another way
  • Is it possible for a person to Act Morally?

Now I doubt that there are many people who have not heard of or read the “Sayings of Confucius” known as the Analects. In fact that text has probably been read by more people than the bible. But in real life Confucius favoured a style of teaching later made famous by the ancient Greek philosophers like Socrates, where he would take his students into the garden and just discuss issues or answer questions. He actually wrote very little down.

In fact the Analects was not written by Confucius. It was compiled long after his death from notes made by his students and from texts written by them and others.

From a philosophical point of view the huge body of work written about Confucian thinking by second and third generation Confucian philosophers is probably far more important for many reasons, not the least of which is they tend to be more philosophically rigorous, let’s face it, they had more time to digest and think about it and of course they had vigorous debates over it which was a luxury denied to Confucius..

Moral Action Becomes an Issue about 200 BC

Confucian thinking about Moral Action really got going about 200 BC (Confucius was born in 552 BC and he died in 479 BC). The thing that prompted this line of inquiry was the terrible times China experienced during the Warring States period which was a time of extreme brutality and this got the philosophers thinking about questions of Human Nature and the relationship between the mind and our desires. The issues they discussed included such as topics as:

  • What is wrong with human nature
  • How can we train people, teach people or revise Human Nature
  • What is the relationship of the mind to desire
  • How can we control our desire 
  • Is desire the cause of everything evil

The disciple of Confucius most favoured by the Chinese was a chap called Mencius and in later dynasties most people just studied him because he commented on the Analects and on Confucius; he was the prophet disciple that clarified everything.

————————————————————

Part one of a three part article submitted by Ric Vatner who has been a keen student of Ancient Chinese Philosophy for over 20 years.

Ric’s father who was Russian grew up in China before World War ll and imparted his knowlege of the culture and philosophy of the Chinese people to Ric through the stories he told him as a child. In later life they often discussed or more correctly, debated philosophical issues with Ric advocating the Western views he learned at school or church and his father balancing that by outlining the Chinese philosophy.

Ric says “I found debating my father quite frustrating as he had a good understanding of both the Christian and Jewish religions as well as Eastern Philosophy and he was a great Chess and Bridge player so just as I thought I was about to score the winning point he would trump me with another approach. I really enjoyed those discussions and I slowly learned not to be so narrow minded when thinking about issues.” 

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