Xun Zi
Xun Zi – Human Nature is Evil
Xun Zi said there is something wrong with Mencius’s view that Human Nature is good. He thought that view was too idealistic and didn’t believe that was really the case. Human Nature, he said, is not really good.
His view was more Machiavellian; he believed that Human Nature is bad, so you just have to control it. (And from this you get a hint of how the Legalist philosophy grew out of this line of argument)
Xun Zi says, “if I perform a good moral action, that is just because I am scared of punishment or I’m scared of the loss I might incur such as loss of face. I do it not because I intrinsically want to but because I’m scared of the consequences of not doing it. So in that sense that’s not real morality.”
There is No Moral Action – Only Fear of Consequences
Some Confucian philosophers interpret Xun Zi as saying: There is no moral action there are just potential choices, and each has its consequences.
For example, imagine I’m a kid and I’m hungry and I fight with my brother over a piece of cake. Our mother sees us and punishes both of us, and neither of us gets the cake. So through this error or action, I learn to suppress my desire to fight so my mum will see us both being good and maybe give us 2 cakes.
So in that sense when you are performing a right moral act, doing the right thing, you are just calculating your long term best interests, your long-term benefit and you are making a rational choice. So ultimately it is about satisfying your own desire, your own self-interest.
Confucians say “this is not what we Confucianists have in mind – real moral actions are those performed intrinsically for the sake of doing it.
Not because I like it
Not because I desire it
Not because it satisfies me
Just because it is Moral
So these guys hate Xun Zi because he starts from the opposite premise that they hold true – which is, that Human Nature is good
Support for Xun Zi
Xun Zi
Another group of Confucian philosophers, who are more inclined to support Xun Zi, say:
I’m not sure that is what Confucius was saying, so if that is what you are going to use against Xun Zi you have a problem. They say, If you go back to Mencius, he says,
“If we perform a moral action that is because the 4 moral sprouts in our heart prompted it, but it is also because you like it. It satisfies you, it is something that satisfies your heart’s desire.” So in that case, there is still a case of satisfying your own desire. It’s just that in this case you happen to desire to do good. (That’s their interpretation of Mencius)
So is it really intrinsically a moral action and if it’s not, you can’t use it as an argument against Xun Zi.
This led them to ask “How is moral action possible in Chinese Philosophy?”
“Is this something that has to be guided by or driven by desire or is this something that’s performed for the sake of that thing itself?”
Or
Is it something we are told to do – is it something that is welded externally to me that’s not part of me? It’s just something that is forced on me.
This is the question that people are still struggling with today.
Post Script
In ancient Chinese Philosophy there were at one time four themes on human nature
- Human Nature is Good
- Human Nature is bad
- Human Nature is both Good and bad
- Human Nature is neither Good nor Bad, it just about a later development.
I’m not sure why the latter two views are not talked about any more in Chinese Philosophy but when Confucianism was adopted as the state doctrine / orthodoxy by the Han Dynasty, things got stereotyped and conflicting views were squeezed out.
Mencius was against the view that human nature is an empty vessel – he used the famous example – if you walk by a lake and see a child drowning it’s not possible that you don’t feel anything. You must feel something and that something is just the sprout of compassion telling you to act. If you listen to it, you will rescue the child, but if you listen to your senses of desire “Oh the water is too cold or I’ll ruin my good clothes, for example, you would stop yourself from helping. So Mencius is quite adamant that Human Nature is good.
All the Episodes of this series on Moral Action
Confucius on Moral Action and Human Nature – Part 1
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Best Wishes,
Ric
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Editor:
Wow! Thank you so much.
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Editor:
Sure, happy to help. Just email me. ric at shadow in the flame dot com
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I’m pretty new to BlogEngine and noticed that a number of your other readers have different avatars. Any idea as …
Editor’s Note:
Hi Green tea, We do not use one of the major comment software programmes like Disqus or Commentluv but if we did, then people who register with them can submit an avatar or picture that will appear wherever they leave a comment as long as the blog is using that software.
Our problem with that software is that many people don’t want to register they just want to leave a quick comment so it reduced the number of comments we received therefore we took it off.
Do you our readers have any preference for whether we use something like Disqus or not?
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Editor
Ouch that hurt. I have been very slow to post haven’t I. It’s not that I don’t have a ton of topics to write about, I just don’t get the time at the moment. But I appreciate your comment and it does motivate me to get a new one up soon. Promise.
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